Another concern in relation to mob difficulty is player retention.

What's it going to take to keep a genuinely new player on Tempus?

What are elements of discouragement that we've witnessed?

What keeps newer players going past those difficulties?

For me, there were two major topics that was very frustrating me when I was a newbie.

#1. The helpfulness of other players.

#2. The mob difficulty.

Although at some points of my gaming experience on Tempus could be frustrating, I had a major boost compared to normal newbies. I had very experienced parents who could help me every time I screamed :D Don't get me wrong, some characters are very helpful with tons of information. You don't even need to know a lot about Tempus, just a friendly face is encouraging, (take Sekka for example :P). But I got very annoyed when there was a silence after i asked a question. Well, now I know that sometimes they might not know the answer, or that they are afk. But I never liked to be simply ignored, especially in my time of need. To change this, we all need to show effort, together as a MUD. And if we put our effort forward now, there will be more people in future. This is very appealing as a newbie, seeing many people on the wholist who are ready to help.

Along with the silences, the mob difficulty always brought me down. I was constantly screaming, both in my head and out loud, "WHEN AM I GOING TO GET THIS LEVEL?!?!?". Leveling was a challenge every day, and it left my angry and wanting to rent as soon as I could. This isn't something that we as mortals can fix, because the newbies won't really learn anything in my mind if they just get spammed to level 49. It is up to the immortals to make easier zones, or lessen the mob difficulty of already existing zones :D

Honestly I don't know how to make actual new newbies come on… just not experienced in that way =/

To make a newbie stay, we need to work together and put some effort in. The MUD would be even more enjoyable for us if there were more active players, you have to admit it. So do your part! Help a newbie today! :D

I do my best to help newbies as much as I can… I have tried to help several newbies, and they all seem to come and go, and many never come back again. I personally think it is because leveling is much too hard. They level so slowly, and that's rather discouraging for them AND us. And all we can do is sit there and watch their level slowly rise one by one, hoping that they stick around the next day to gain a only a few more. I have had my hopes up with a few newbies, for they seemed to get the hang of it pretty quick and level faster than others. But then something happens… whether they die, or simply get sick of leveling I really don't know. They don't come back to tell us.

Why is that? What is keeping newbies away?

There are some newbies that stick around, thankfully. For example, the good-knight Sennadar. The guy has stuck around past gen 0, and has now remorted. When I asked him what made him stay, he told me it was his clan, and the leveling they provided for him. He also continued to tell me that it was a toss-up on whether or not he would have stayed much longer if his clan didn't help him a bit my power leveling him. He says that it was in fact a little hard to level before such help, and I don't doubt that at all.

I was just playing my mortal character, out of frustration of my Sekka. And then I found myself even more frustrated. It was easy in the beginning, the first few levels. But then it gets pretty hard. While one place is too easy, the other place can be way too hard. I was stuck in the middle of this. And for a lot of newbies, it must be the same frustration. They either deal with the easy stuff forever, until they can handle the better stuff… or they try their best to go to the harder spot and level there. I'm almost certain this is where they quit. Either they die and never come back, or they are too frustrated with how slow the leveling is.

It seems that the only way they ever come back is if they get a lot more help than it really should be. It shouldn't have to come down to power leveling, but it seems to anyway. They shouldn't have to sit there as we go through the zones for them, they should be experiencing it themselves. But either way, they can't with the current mob difficulty. Either we let them sit through their fabricated newbie experience, or we watch as they disappear one by one. There has to be a better solution.

i agree strongly with these statements posted here… it is extremely hard to find a decent leveling place with a low gen or level charachter. either every place seems to be a bit too hard or way too easy. while i understand that it is intended to make the game more challenging, it also makes it much more discouraging to face the fact that one must eternally fight the easy stuff, or repetitively risk dieing in a desperate attempt to defeat stronge enemies…

As much as I agree with these sentiments I do have to say that leveling is not that difficult from any experiences I've had. There are many areas that people just don't go to to try and level. That's the joy of exploration, we have soo many different places in our world that people don't bother to go to. Everyone has become used to the 'popular' zones that most of the higher level players go to. There are many places that could be used to level at that people ignore or don't know about.

One thing I've learned is remorting is as hard as leveling and the key I've always used is instead of trying to speed through levels I go for easier mobs that carry more then usual amount of gold. It might be frustrating to do but by the time you hit negatives you have more money then you could want and don't have to worry about it.

If anyone disagrees then come talk to me about it in the game and show me your point.

The main issue here is that we have a shitty help file system that newbies can't search for what they're looking for. If we had a help system that could search by keywords and show the different helpfiles that had those keywords, maybe they wouldn't be so frustrated. The maps definately help, but imagine how helpful it would be for a new player to: HELP HALFLINGS: and get the system to pull up a file about halflings AND the halfling village. Also, areas file should be searchable based on gen/level. That would improve things as well. The project was started, but wasn't fully completed. Help hobgoblins exists! :P

Well Sathrynn, to be honest when was the last time you played a mortal character with limited knowledge of this game and no special gear and no clan power leveling to speed the process? I think things might have changed from then, maybe, I don't know. But for newbies things ARE different than YOU leveling, because even if you end up playing the game as a mortal with no special gear… you still have the knowledge they don't. You know the zones. You probably can handle the frustration of leveling with the easier mobs because you KNOW it gets easier. They don't know that, and most probably won't stay to find out.

Well Sathrynn, to be honest when was the last time you played a mortal character with limited knowledge of this game and no special gear and no clan power leveling to speed the process? I think things might have changed from then, maybe, I don't know. But for newbies things ARE different than YOU leveling, because even if you end up playing the game as a mortal with no special gear… you still have the knowledge they don't. You know the zones. You probably can handle the frustration of leveling with the easier mobs because you KNOW it gets easier. They don't know that, and most probably won't stay to find out.

oops i did it twice?

yeah i just read through what i wrote and realized it made no sense…sorry… i'll read before i post next time :D

Glint - There's no wrong answer. Replying is a way to collect all our thoughts on newbiedom.

lol thnx azka, but i meant that my grammar made no sense :P i am sticking to my ideas, and i know theres no wrong answer :D

The main thing I see wrong with Tempus and newbies is the integration of them into our world. There is no true newbie zone that introduces them into our mud. I know the imms are hard at work coming up with a zone that will do this and it takes time.

The only thing we can do at the moment to help new people is just to encourage them to keep trying and help them out anyway we can that is justifiable with the Policy we have. You can help a new player besides giving them equipment or money. I have taken many new players under my wing and showed them the zones that are close by and can be used by them to level or just be interested in exploring our world. Honestly this isn't a game that is supposed to be easy, the main reason I have stayed on Tempus is for the most part the people are more mature then your average player on some of the more mainstream MMORPGS. If a new person can't persevere in our world with just a little help then I don't know if I want to waste my time trying to help them. I have had new people that I have tried to help that have come to me later in their generations and still tried to get the most basic information.

On Sekka's point: I understand where you are coming from but I believe that just because I know where to go or what to do to make leveling on the mud easier doesn't mean that it's not hard to create a new player on here and level them. I was a new player once and there was only one person who helped me out, Artemis. He showed me how to get to the temple north of Modrian and gave me a recall item. Back when I started things were no easier for new people then they are now. One thing is the Playerkilling was alot worse then what you have had to experience. The Mud has never been truly newb friendly but all we can do is try to help new players however we think it is appropriate and see what happens.

I don't know how anyone else feels but like I said earlier the only reason I stuck around on this Mud were the amazing people I have met and been able to hang out with. That's the only thing that will really keep new players around is a little interaction with other people and a reason to play. Before everyone asks what the Mud can do to retain new people why don't we take a little time and think about anything else we can do to encourage people to stay, without going overboard and doing everything for them. I know alot of people help new players and I don't want to act like everyone ignores all the new people that join to play our game. I am just trying to make a point that it's a multiplayer game, the whole reason to play is to interact with other people in the world and have a good time.

Sorry for the long post…

I am one of those players that would not have made it if it were not for all the help that was given to me. As you know, Scorch (Wrath) is my father. He gave me many pieces of equipment and showed me where to level and how. Then I was enrolled in the Paragon clan, a clan full of independent people who know this game better than most. They helped me so much, and if not for this help I would not see myself playing now. I would have to say the same goes for Glint as well, and I already mentioned Sennadar would not have made it without his help.

Look at the wholist, who is on? I see people who I know have been playing this MUD for a while now, and I know are very independent in what they do and they probably didn't need the help that Glint, Sennadar, and I had. I don't know if things were any easier to do back then, so I feel really weird comparing today to back then… but I feel like the newbies we are getting today are not like the independent half on the wholist anymore. So in order to keep this MUD going I think we are going to have to adjust. Because not only do I see these independent and experienced players, but I see me. I see Glint, and I see Sennadar. And even Tankgirl received a lot of help, because I remember quaking her in halflings with Kabal. We are the other half of this MUD who would not be here today without the help we received, and we received this help because it really is hard to be a mort and to level and to stay.

I agree with Sathrynn to a degree, that newbies shouldn't need the help that the most recent ones have been given. So I try to provide the friendly face for them, and I check up on them every now and then. And when they are ready to leave the tower, I show them Halflings and I give them a cloak of Modrian to recall with. Most newbies get the hang of it easily, and soon all I have to do is show them the next place and simply answer a few questions they may have.

But as I said before, there is a point where no matter how much advice you give them it won't help. You assure them that it gets easier once you remort, but how are they to know? They are discouraged and stuck leveling at a hard place where they die, or at a really easy place that they have to remain for a long time. This is frustrating for them, and we need to change something so that it is easier for the people necessary to keep this MUD going.

And yeah I'm sorry if this post didn't really make much sense…

First off Sennadar wasnt just leveled straight to 49 and remorted. We would get him a couple levels and give him directions to zones he could try and let him sit for a few days. If he gained a couple levels on his own we would get him a couple more and hand him directions. So its not like we powered him straight to gen 1. Also he played this mud long ago so he wasnt a new newb.

As for helping newbies, i like to give a helping hand whenever i can. but you cant babysit newbies till they remort. let him get a few levels on his own giving advice when its needed. even though we have a lot of independent players on here, most of them were in the same boat when they first started. if it wasnt for Shaba Sath Pitt and Sepherus i prolly would have never kept playing this game. from being pked at a very low level and dting a couple times, these guys kept getting me eq and helping whenever possible. i joined legacy around level 30 and proceeded to level in ecu till about level 36 before anyone started dragging me around. unlike alot of players that start now a days it took me 3 years to get my first gen 10. alot of that was done on my own.

you feel that the mud needs to adjust to keep newbies around. i feel that newbies need to stop being spoonfed and have things handed to them to stay. its ok to sit and answer questions and show them a few zones. check in every once in a while. new players have to learn sooner or later how to fend for themselves so its better to do it when you first start.

I agree that they shouldn't be spoon-fed. They shouldn't. And I try not to do so. I let them level on their own, giving them the advice of where to go and I answer a few of their questions. I check up on them every now and then to give them a friendly face. But as I keep saying there is a point where no matter how much advice you give them they do need a bit more help. Maybe not, but that's what I have been seeing. I really do think that things are different than they used to be. It might be easier in that there is no major PKing anymore, but its the leveling that makes it harder now. The point of this forum is to make the mob difficulty easier, especially for the newbies. I think it is harder now than it was back then for you guys.

And Bush, I never said you leveled him straight to level 49. I said you helped him, and that's what he told me. He never said you power leveled him to 49 and I never said that either. I know you helped him with advice and you let him get levels on his own…

Hi, as a new player on Tempus, I thought I'd throw my two bits in. At the time of this posting my character is 6 days 13 hours old. I have spent quite a bit of this time learning what I could of the MUD, its history, and how it functions. I recently hit lvl 49, and the decision to pursue a remort and continue a career here looms in the near future.

Firstly, the majority of players that I've met have either practically been falling over themselves to be helpful or at the least were polite and informative. I am certainly grateful to these players, and having helpful people around is nice. It is not something that makes or breaks a MUD for me though. In a way, the more I am helped, the less I feel that I have achieved on my own, and this can actually detract from the overall experience. Anyways, let's move on to what I've found as "negative points" during my short stay here.

1. Role-play seems to be pretty much non-existent. I have observed no distinction between IC/OOC, and apart from the descriptions they write for themselves nobody seems interested in their characters outside of numbers and performance. The general treatment of the MUD seems to be that of an arcade game with mild RPG elements where the goal is to level up and get the best stuff. On the other hand maybe it's happening all around me and I just haven't seen it.

2. Everyone is everyone's buddy. Reading through the forums it seems that there used to be a thriving PK community, but this has somehow been overridden by a stark majority of carebears. This may or may not be directly attributable to a lack of RP, or possibly a PK system that has been tampered with over the years culminating in a partially implemented reputation system and zone limitations. I have not seen anyone with more than 4 kills or a reputation higher than mostly harmless. Perhaps I'm wrong and there are fantastic rivalries and wars going on behind the scenes visible to mere non-remorts. Or maybe this is SuperFriends HQ, I don't know.

Okay, so maybe those first two items aren't really that bad. Not everybody likes to RP, and not everybody likes a cutthroat PK MUD. Moving on…

1. Death penalties/mechanics are underdocumented and (in my opinion) a tad extreme (for non-remorts at least). It was only through reading old forum posts (and later personal experience) that I became aware of HP loss, and once I realized how incredibly precious life points are I lost pretty much all impetus to explore new areas. I would happily prefer to lose several levels of experience over any life points or permanent HP, which brings me to the next point.

2. Lack of reason to explore new areas. I was able to grind up to 49 with little trouble by visiting a handful of areas. Exploring new areas would more often than not result in finding an aggressive mob who ripped me a new one (costing more precious life points/hp). As there is no penalty for repeatedly killing the same things, that's generally what I stuck with. I am still trying to explore at least one new area per day, but there is no overarching reason for me to do so aside from curiousity, boredom or pursuit of new gear. Risk vs Reward is an often overrused term in game design, but it applies in spades here. I realize that there are experience penalties after remorting and I may need to find new areas, however anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that most grinding is still largely done in only a few places.

"But death should be hardcore!" you might say. Okay, that's well and good, but all the current penalties inspire me (and perhaps others) to do is play it safe. If a zone even smells dangerous the thought of losing hard-saved life points is enough to keep me from attempting it. As I mentioned before, you can take all the experience you want (1-2 levels per gen maybe?) but leave my beloved life points and hp out of it.

Zones seem to be a decent mix of stock (not too many thankfully) and original areas with the occasional "parody" zone thrown in (yes KKI I'm looking at you). It's nice that an "areas" command exists to try and give suggestions where to go, but I would prefer an abbreviated full list of all zones with the name of the zone followed by recommended levels on each line. Leave the full description for specific help files or until you get there and type "where".

1. Underdeveloped class and combat aspects. I chose to play as a mercenary. I have always enjoyed the archetype in other MUD's and was looking forward to trying them out here. I was surprised/disappointed to discover that my best single method of killing mobs was a level 6 skill called wrench. Every other skill and weapon that I've obtained is empirically bested by a two handed wrench. Anything else that I do when killing mobs (hamstring, shoulderthrow, shoot etc) is basically to alleviate the monotony of endless neck snapping. A friend who observed me killing remarked that I might as well be Judo Chopping them a la Austin Powers. Not to mention a complete lack of any damage mitigation outside of worn equipment. I guess what I'm saying is that mercs really seem to need some love. And speaking of the combat system….

Maybe it's just me, but the flow of combat seems a little wonky. At times I can get in anywhere from 3-6 rounds of attacks before a mob will respond, while other times the same mob will respond evenly, or perhaps get a few rounds of attacks in on its own. This may be some undocumented but well known feature of combat or perhaps a side effect of lag, I don't know.

Archery and guns (throwing as well) seem pretty much glossed over both in effectiveness and availability. For some reason the only way to fire into adjacent rooms is with a gen 2 merc skill, largely removing their expected primary use to pull otherwise unkillable groups of mobs apart. Spicing up ranged combat would definitely add another dimension to the game.

Scanning adjacent rooms for mobs is useless in many cases, as is using look to try and find out what is inside. Much of the time the only way to see what is in a room directly next to you is to quickly run in and out. It is unclear if this is a side effect of the skill or simply a result of how the zones were built.

Wonkiness aside, the spells and skills available in the game are fairly unremarkable and make up what I would consider standard fare in terms of effect and availability to classes. They may not be identical in all cases, but they are certainly not unique either. The same goes for equipment and its uses.

In fact, the only truly unique factor I've found in Tempus is the setting. I've only played one other MUD that featured time travel via portals (in their case it was past/modern/future) and that MUD is gone now, so Tempus seems to have the monopoly in this regard (for the time being at least).

Veterans here may disagree and argue that Tempus is a unique and special flower in all aspects and that I'm wrong about it being anything like other MUD's. Unfortunately this is simply not the case. Many MUD's tend to bear resemblance to each other, and so it comes down to the finer details to capture a player. I would encourage builders to focus on refining existing zones (more mob procs, more npc quests, definitely more "widget/misc" items along with useful equipment).

Anyways, I've babbled enough. Take it as you will. I reserve the right to deny that I wrote any of this in case I change my mind later.

P.S I apologize to anyone who may have given me anything up to this point, as I seem to have irrevocably lost all my equipment/inventory.

Faustaff

Granted, I've only been playing a little this week with my cleric Valding, so the majority of my observations are 6 years old, but…

Faustaff-

Pretty much everything you say is true. PKilling was a major pastime at one point, and later there was even a clan called Super Friends. Merc was also a very long underdeveloped class. All the future classes were longer in coming into their own. Remorting is also a game changer. From what you're saying it almost sounds like you're underestimating how much of a difference there is between a gen 0 49 and even a gen 1 49. There are workarounds you can find to help you along your way, you just have to find them, which is not an easy task.

Which brings me to my real point- accessibility. In the interval from when I quit Tempus until now, I've been playing a large array of MMO's. Given that there are some basic fundamental differences between a MUD and an MMO, you can still learn something from them. You have to see these as competitors because they serve the same basic purpose of an online multiplayer game with RPG elements. If you cannot see that, then the rest of this post is lost to you. A lot of these games have made innovations along the way that Tempus just hasn't seen. The big 3 as I see it in order from greatest to least: death penalty, recovery and downtime, availability of equipment.

Death penalties have gone from what you see now in Tempus, to Everquest corpse runs (but at least you're the only one who can loot the body), to 10% durability hits on WoW where gear can never be destroyed, to a temporary debuff on Warhammer Online that can easily be shrugged off. Whatever the specifics, it's gone from potentially lose all your stuff and permanent damage to delayed or virtually no penalty.

Recovery and downtime. This past winter I broke out my elemental shaman on WoW. He literally never once stopped to rest in my quest to hit the level cap. I come back to Tempus and I see that energy tap is now included on newbie gear (a start at least) but it still takes me several minutes of sleeping and doing nothing to get full mana back from nothing.

Equipment availability is actually not a real new innovation, but you can see where it's been more successful with systems where it's always loaded on a boss mob but random what loads, or hey you collect tokens to trade in for a specific piece, or you can buy from vendors once you hit a certain level/rank/whatever.

The problem is absolutely not player helpfulness in no way, shape, or form and nobody should be blaming themselves and saying they could have been more helpful.

I've heard many theories over the years,

Pk chased away newbies, The newbie zone sucks, newbs get ignored, players arn't helpful or are mean, Help files suck, Mobs are too hard,

I'm not sure anyone really has the answer,

When I first started, typical senario went,

Tyrone Lvl 8 knight- Me newbies, 'Hey, anyone know what exactly these consider messages are, they seem kinda vague?'

Someone newbies, 'shut the fuck up' Someoneelse newbies, 'figure it out for yourself dipshit'

Me newbies, 'I'm trying to find halflings, I've been exploring for about 15 minutes, I think I'm close, they're east after going somewhat south right?'

Someone stares at you and utters the words '*******'. You are dead. R.I.P. Press return to continue into the afterlife.

Me thinking, "oh crap, how'd I die, I need to retrieve!" retrieve The retriever tells you, 'I'm sorry your corpse cannot be located.' wtf?

Me newbies, 'Why can't the retriever locate my corpse?'

Someone newbies, 'Cause your body is gone, borrow a quarter and call someone who cares'.

The game used to be butt mean and it wasn't uncommon to get ignored, after lvl 6, you were not a newbie, if you accidently attacked another player, you were flagged, 'Toughguy' - meaning any mort could kill you, and not recieve a 'KILLER' flag. If you accidently attacked a remort, you were flagged 'Remort Toughguy' -meaning any remort could kill you and not recieve a 'KIllER' flag.

Which always made me laugh getting called a, "newbie killer" when I'd pop off a gen 2 or 3,-

I ran ogres with my mort mage until I was lvl 39, it took a long time, a lvl every ⁴⁄₅ days was hawt for me, pick up some new spells, then see what zones I could take then (yes I still wear mostly crappy eq)

It took me over a year and a half to get, 1 (one) gen. Even after I had a gen 10, I sucked, save for player killing, (go go mage/thief!) (and there's that merc who's lvl 37 gen 1 after less than 10 days of playing time? {sorry to call ya out Faustaff :P}) If you've remorted in less than 2 months, that's goofy fast. And people want the mobs easier, and it easier to level?

It wasn't untill my second or 3rd remort when I really grew up and started working on Tactics, that was when my ability to lvl/gen/take on big bad hard mobs went up.

Players seem to want to stay for various reasons.

All the people that complained about pk arn't around anymore, they're gone, yet the system of pk that they so desperately said they needed, and would stay if it happened, is still here.

I started playing cause all my friends were playing, and it seemed like a fun thing to do. I was a mud addict when i first started playing. It was dangerous, it was hard, it was a challege.

I'm starting to think that anyone who says that they know exactly the one single reason what will keep people playing, is lying. There's many reasons, if people want to stay and play, they will. If they don't, they won't. Get yer friends to play :P

-Caw

I'm sure some of you remember clan academy in which the new players were automatically enrolled. Not only did the clanhouse offer portals to easy places, the walls were covered in hints and directions, provided a healer and shop… Not to mention donated eq often when there as well as eq room kept stocked. It also offered a place to rent and anyone in academy enjoyed the protection of the clan and were easily recognized as true newbies who needed assistance. H've just returned from an extended absence and h've noted very distinct changes, some good some not. First, everyone is much more friendly. My trigger to who zone is practically useless. Mobs hit much harder, and imm interaction with players is practically nonexistant. But yeah, i think academy should be relooked into.