A new character enters the realm, you check the who list, and see his or her class. You tell them to reroll because the class is "not good for new characters" or "tough as mort" or whatever. Which classes are your 3-5 that you recommend against for a new character? Why? Which classes are your top 3 to recommend instead? Why?

You're remorting a character. Regardless of primary class, which secondary are the worst 3 that you would never choose/recommend? Why?

Thanks for your thoughts!

for new players, I recommend against good knights, mages, bard, psion, and physic

mostly because they're fairly advanced, except for good knight which is just flat out bad, and people who are new to tempus will get frustrated easily playing these as primary,

as far as secondaries go, the only class I can come up with that adds no real benefit is knight.

everything else gives some kind of desirable benefit, be it spellups, utility, specific skill combos, equipment, etc

Worst to play as mortal: Mage, Knight, Ranger, Thief. These classes will have a difficult time legitimately leveling due to 1) lack of survivability and 2) lack of power-move. Some may disagree, but power-moves make the new-game content much easier when it's a race to see who can kill who first. There really aren't any survival tactics as a mortal, you just don't have enough utility/stats/equipment. Mages get decent spells early on (burning hands - great for leveling btw, and lightning bolt - which will run you dry of mana early on), but they can't survive versus any mob worth killing once you get past low level newbie zones. Elementals are far from useful when you have shit stats. Thieves just plain out suck- Backstab is no where as powerful as it used to be, and they will have as hard of a time if not worse tanking mobs than a Mage. All in all, no real heal, no reliable power move, no tanking ability. They are one of the oldest classes, but have one of the most incomplete skill lists. Off topic to this, but it's silly when thieves have a total of 2 remort skills (gen 2 being the highest), while Mages have 7 and Clerics twice as many as a Mage. They are just an incomplete class that is only sought out for Stun. As a Knight or Ranger, you're relying on passive attacks to finish off mobs that have 10x more hitpoints than you. Who will win the race? Remember, newbies won't be leveling with 50 stats, or even close. Imagine leveling with 20% of the amount of hit/mana/move as you normally do. These two classes (thief included) rely heavily on a good weapons/armor to level, but as a mortal, you won't really have access.

Best to play as mortal: Bard, Monk, Psi. These classes all get early power-moves, which will allow for easy kills for easy exp. Scream, palm/throatstrike, psiblast are enough to kill most mobs through early levels. In addition, these classes are not as EQ-reliant as the ones mentioned above. Bards are the newest, yet most complete class there is. They are the jack of all trades, with the perfect set of skills, whether it is to kill 1 mob or 10 mobs, tank, heal, retreat, etc. Psionics get early-on heals, psiblast, buff/debuffs, with the ability to drain mana back at level 24. They don't get a lot of hit points, but psiblast should kill most equal level mobs in 1 hit. Palm strike is quick and probably the most reliable since it doesn't use any move points to use. The only downtime they will have is lack of heals.

Classes I would never use as a secondary: Barb, Thief, Mercenary. I won't lie, as I have used them before, but none of these classes bring anything to the table that other classes are not better at. If you're looking for physical passive damage or a knockdown, you are better off being a Monk, Knight, or Ranger. If you're looking for tanking abilities, consider every other class available. If you're looking for a power-move, again, consider every other class available. I'm not saying these classes are completely useless (well yes I am to Thief), but there are better choices, and there are BEST choices.

The fact that every class can quad attack with the right gear setup, regardless of primary/secondary, is what makes dual caster combinations so powerful. Imagine if Mage/Phys/Psi/Bard/Clerics could only single or double attack at most - you would see a lot more variety of classes on the who list. It would really balance out the game. You don't really need double attack or triple attack in order to… double or triple attack, or even quadruple attack. That's a problem. Actually needing it would make classes with triple attack sought out tremendously. If anyone knows me, you should know that casters are my favorite, but I would like to log on sometimes without having to see nothing but Mages on the who list.

Bump for others who might want to post.

For newbie primary classes, I'd recommend AGAINST: bard, cleric, knight, mage, and physic. Generally, caster classes are harder for newbies, and waiting for mana to regenerate is kind of annoying. Bards, clerics, and knights require holy symbols, so that might be frustrating for newbies as well.

For newbie primary classes, I'd recommend: cyborg, mercenary, and monk. These classes get some kind of decent damage move (discharge, wrench, and palm strike) that can get them leveling fairly fast, and to the point where they can learn a bit more about the game, buying some decent eq, earn some money in preparation for starting another character.

The worst secondary classes are: bard, knight, and thief. These classes don't offer much as secondaries.

Every class is horrible when you are mortal. Unless you have tons of help you are going to level extremely slowly. I'll ask level 40 mortal newbies why they are fighting in low level zones and they will tell me "because if I try anywhere else I die constantly", and it's true. They bang their head against the wall for a couple of weeks killing halflings, get nowhere, and then quit. Therefore it's difficult to weigh in on a discussion that assumes that the problem with newbies and the game is that they choose an underpowered class. I'm not arguing that there aren't classes relatively less powerful (or harder to level) than others, it's just not relevant to newbies in general. It's just not possible for newbies to level at a pace that makes the game fun, no matter their class.

Having said that I'm still going to post because that's what I do. I won't list the 3 toughest though, because that's all of them.

Best for newbies, relatively: Monk, Knight, Psionic.

Monk is a well-rounded class that can be effective without a great equipment, specifically a weapon. They do very well low-level because they have a great set of skills low-level. They get some of their best moves mid-level, and those can carry them to remort. Lack of an in-battle heal is their biggest weakness.

I like knight because they have a good mix of skills and spells. They have some decent skills and spells low level, including a heal, as well as some pretty good defensive and offensive spells. Their bread and butter, now, shield slam, comes mid-level, along with more powerful heals and spells. I may be biased to knights though.

Psionics have a good range of spells and skills with their #1 move at level 1. They get some decent defensive and offensive spells, and they have a way to regenerate mana, which for a newbie is very important. Bard didn't make my list because they are heavy mana users with no way to regenerate it. Bard is a decent class, even for newbies, but burning through all of your mana on one mob and then having to sit around for 10 minutes to regenerate it is just no fun.

I think thief is a decent class personally. Stun, backstab, retreat, can be fun and require some strategy to work. I agree it's not for newbies, but it has it's perks.

I do, however, agree with Red with the quad attacking magic users being a bit silly. What's the point in double and triple attack if I'm quad hitting per round as a mage/phyz at level 5?

Wrath, I just imagined myself doing the Stun, Backstab, Retreat scenario with a high gen thief against a simple, easy mob like a Neo Cyborg from Dracharnos. This is where my imagination took me:

You Stun the Neo Cyborg! You Backstab the Neo Cyborg! (Small Wounds) >retreat south The Neo Cyborg stands up. The Neo Cyborg VAPORIZES your ass with his ultra power blast! The Neo Cyborg VAPORIZES your ass with his ultra power blast! The Neo Cyborg VAPORIZES your ass with his ultra power blast! The Neo Cyborg VAPORIZES your ass with his ultra power blast! The Neo Cyborg VAPORIZES your ass with his ultra power blast! You flee head over heals! The Neo Cyborg buzzes in from the east. The Neo Cyborg repairs itself. You beat a hasty retreat south.

No wait! This is what really happens :)

This spacing crap pisses me off.

You Stun the Neo Cyborg!

You Backstab the Neo Cyborg! (Small Wounds)

>retreat south

The Neo Cyborg stands up.

The Neo Cyborg VAPORIZES your ass with his ultra power blast!

The Neo Cyborg VAPORIZES your ass with his ultra power blast!

The Neo Cyborg VAPORIZES your ass with his ultra power blast!

The Neo Cyborg VAPORIZES your ass with his ultra power blast!

The Neo Cyborg VAPORIZES your ass with his ultra power blast!

You flee head over heals!

The Neo Cyborg buzzes in from the east.

The Neo Cyborg repairs itself.

You beat a hasty retreat south.

Wrath, great thoughts. Do you think primarily it's an equipment problem? Tempus has always been EQ-based. Question for all: Should zones offer more low-value (as in vendor, not usefulness) equipment?

For example, a surprisingly good item for many is the Gauntlets of Ogre Power, available from the ogre chieftain.

For example, imagine a quest where you awake in a jail cell and have to search your way out, finding your stashed equipment by the time you exit. Through some puzzles and some killing, you find it all and exit prepared to face the next challenge. Ideally all areas would work this way, having perhaps up to 20 items per zone (not all for your class), so that each class could find 1-2 "keepers" per zone. Earlier zones would be more generic and widely usable.

First: We need a better message board.

Second: I agree, Red, but getting our asses handed to us now is more of a now thing than it should be. I hate to wax nostalgic, but thief used to be able to handle things like that. Just about any class combo is going to get destroyed, thief moreso, because they can't really equip up well. Thief isn't great, I concede that, but they can still be interesting :p

Thirdinglyest: Merriam, I don't think it's really an equipment thing. I can equip a character within the top 10 percentile of the best equipment on the game, and still get destroyed. Just like Red's thief (what a pansy). My theory, and I don't claim to be an expert (maybe I do) is based around that "bugfix" of a while back. The bug that supposedly incorrectly calculated the hit and damroll of mobs which made them easier. When the bug was in play, mobs didn't destroy you. Once fixed, they do. My theory is that the mob stats on Tempus were "upped" to combat the "bug" (to make the mobs appropriately difficult despite the bug we didn't know about), but once the bug was fixed, the mob stats didn't get an equal fixing. I know it sounds like a massive chore, but I think either all the mobs' hit and damrolls need to be reworked, the experience system needs to be reworked (to allow more experience for mobs that are easier, yet closer to what the ratio should be), or Tempus needs more unicorns (seriously where are the unicorns?).

Equipment just doesn't fix this problem. You need something to bear the brunt of the attacks just to survive. And yes, I know it can be done, but it shouldn't require 10 years of Tempus experience and master level strategy to level a gen 10 ranger in a zone with gen 3 and 4 mobs. This directly correlates to newbies in the same way: you have to be gen 3 to handle gen 0 mobs, or you have to bang your head against the wall till you quit, or have your hand held.

Red and Wrath are both on target. I agree with their assessment. Bottomline is, the game is not fun, so new players leave. Why is it not fun? The newbies are dying left and right. They can barely kill anything (mostly classes with a power move, like merc, monk, bard,psi) and they get DECIMATED by nearly every mob with a weapon.

To answer the OP, I would tell a newbie to play a class with a power move. The reason is, if the can kill a mob, they will probably have fun and stay. If they can't kill anything, there is no point staying. You will just die.

Even with the damage by mobs high, a new merc, bard, psi, or monk could kill things easily with their power move. Easier with merc or monk because of no waiting forever for mana to regenerate.

As for secondary class, i like phyz the most. Great dam reduction, mana regen, and electrostatic field!!! Just very versatile and useful skills and spells. Spacetime imprint/recall. You got a lot from having this second class.

Loud and clear. This is a complex problem with multiple causes and will have multiple fixes, both world and mechanics. This is a priority for us and we'd like to deliver something as soon as possible. At the very least, we'd like the experience to be good enough that you can invite your friends back to start playing again!

I definitely appreciate everyone putting in time to make Tempus great. I agree with Merriam that the isdues are complex and compounded by a lack of manpower.

Perhaps it would be helpful if players can help prioritize issues.

1. Newbie eq. Add more acap to items and add a 25 avg dam weapon with 5hit and 5 dam.

2. Postbug fix for damage. Is it posdible to do a universal damage reduction? That would save time from manually adjusting hit/dam on thousands of mobs. Maybe a 25% reduction in damage. That makes it still challenging for new players, without them dying.

3. Reach out to new and old players. With a more fun experience, new and old players would have fun and stay.

4. Gen 10 and beyond content. Most, if not all, current players are old school. There is significant discussions on new players, and little on long time players. I feel it would be good to have something developed for these players, because of their loyalty of staying with us for so long and to have a dynamic end game activities for new players to look forward to joining when gen 10. My two ideas were harvedting corpses to craft new items and boss raids.

What are everyone else's priorities?

Is there currently a reason to not make gen 0 a cakewalk gen? Purposely making it easy for a new player to breeze through the first gen would give them a fun experience and allow them to explore. Perhaps we could set all dangerous rooms (DT/heavy DS) to tell the player to keep out ("You do NOT want to go in there") if they are below gen 1.

Then when the rug is pulled out at gen 1 they will have gained mud knowledge, gained some new eq hopefully, and gained a secondary class. I know that little excited me more than checking skill/spell list after each level to see what I could train or what I would be earning next level. Now they will have twice as many skills and spells to see with the new class.

Plus they would have some skin in the game now. Having spent some time leveling and getting to know the mud and its players they will be less apt to leave.

Potential downsides: 1) Too fast through gen 0, this would need to be a balancing act. Maybe increase offense/defense stats way out of whack, but keep exp earned for gen 0 lower than regular.
2) Dislike of mud when it levels out at gen 1, but I kinda explained that above.
3) Devastation due to loss of mort eq at remortation. This would be if the good stats came from mort eq but they could be working to replace it along the way. Maybe have different mort eq that gradually phases out in the same fashion as holy symbols have level restrictions.

I believe games are fun when you have interesting choices you can make. Tempus, or any game, is not supposed to be easy. It is also not supposed to be impossible. There's a happy middle which we'd like to exist in after the changes are implemented. Some of the ideas we've tossed around have already been touched on by others in this thread.

There are many reasons not to make gen 0 effortless. If we reduced all damage from mobs to gen 0 characters by 90%, gen 0 would be a cakewalk. But would it be fun? Does a ranger have interesting choices when he sweepkicks from level 27 to 49? Does a mortal mage have interesting choices to make around mana management, or no choices? Suppose a newbie isn't dying in the holodeck, but he still misses 6 out of 7 attacks? Players do not quit because the game is too hard. They quit because it's boring. (Even supposing damage is too high, which it probably is, lowering damage does not automatically get everyone to stay.)

I would rather present a challenging situation which a new player can learn to tackle using normally-available equipment and methods. There should be interesting choices. Some choices lead to death, such as exploring a new area and wandering into the chieftain's room where he is surrounded by his elite guards and dire wolves. Some choices can lead to rewards, such as finding a treasure within a buried box. Ideally there are often trade-offs in the interesting choices: do I use my mana-intensive ability for a quick kill against this leader, or do I use my mana-efficient abilities for slower kills against these singletons? Should I group up with someone for this area, or is it better if I go it alone?

I am completely OK if newbies die. A lot. But the game should be balanced enough that someone can come back later and slaughter that chieftain. There should be hurdles and obstacles to overcome, not brick walls smash your head brainless against. To extend the hurdle analogy, it is not challenging or interesting to jump over a stick lying on the ground. Nor is it a challenge so much as a joke if the stick is held ten feet off the ground. But somewhere in between you have a meaningful obstacle that, if a player can overcome it, is fun and rewarding. These will be attainable by anyone who pays attention, as I believe any "hardcore" experiences would be best targeted toward our veteran players. I also don't think most players are first-time MUDders, so if you can provide an interesting story and an engaging community, you've done a lot to create a fun world.