So, how is the bard class?

Is it balanced compared with the other classes? Is it too weak, too powerful, too silly?

How could it be improved? What is good about it, bad about it, what needs more consideration?

As you learn to play the bard class, and as Calidan learns to accept them, write your comments here so we can have a balance playing field to keep Tempus great.

We want your comments!

• wish *

I just know they kick ass, and they're gonna kick even more ass at higher gens :P with hp/mana/move all above 1000 at early gens, i wonder how they're gonna be like at gen 10. Scream rocks too.

Well, as no matter what I say, someone's bound to disagree… Having seen a few bards in action: They have Merc-like hps, rather fun songs, and are weak physically in the melee damage department.
I've not seen any tank from them always having about 4 groupies so I can't say how powerful Tumbling is. Their spells tend to succeed quite a bit which is nice. No sleep-esqe spell is good, as it doesn't make them all-around dominant. Their Dispel is nice, along with their gen 4 Gate/Portal spell. Steal is good as it takes the heat off of Thieves. Double Attack in my opinion is rather absurd, unsure why they have it, and at quite a low level for a non-melee class.
Bards in all appear to be a fun class that are great for grouping, as well as appear to be excellent supportive classes for helping newbies with buffs. As for instruments…. I feel logically that they should all be 2_handed, but have them be mixed. Have them be able to play -any- song with any instrument, just the degree of success/effect should be greatly lessend. One can play a song of a different type on any instrument, it just sounds best on certain ones. =) As for "Melody of Mettle," raising con makes little sense.. but hey, that's just me. This was my two cents.

David (Strael)

Melody of Mettle doesn't raise constitution. It raises your maxhit.

Anyway, I personally love the class. I have been wanting to get into a caster class, and here it is! The audience members a incredibly buff, and helpful what with their 1.5k+ hp, and being able to raise it more with mettle, the group spells are kickin, and it's generally a really really fun class to play.

Double attack with bards makes sense. Traditionally they have been able to hand themselves in a fight. And look let's be honest, double attack does not make or break a class :p

I haven't played one yet, however there buffs all look really good. I think it's a great addition to the available character classes. Of course we won't really have an idea of class balance until there are a few mid gen bards running around. But look to be honest, class balance is not Tempus's strong point anyway :)

summons are silly! extremely extremely silly! either they should be nerfed to mgae elemental levels, or elementals shuld be buffed up to the level of audience members!

Well, after this new bard class was put in, I decided to make an excel file, informally ranking each class with a number system (0-2), based on various kinds of skills/spells that I think are most important to Tempus.

Now, this is all based strictly on my opinions, and I'm not considering things like equipment on the mud for each class (which to me is a separate but related issue that has more to do with changing the world rather than changing the classes). Also, this is based on having each class as a primary with all their available skills/spells at every generation (I know classes change and evolve as they gen up, with remort skills/spells).

So, here's my chart: (i'll probably have to try this various times because the formatting here is weird and I need to figure out how it works)

The abilities I'm rating are: Stun/sleep Heal Pets Dodge/deflect attacks Damage reduction Knock down Speed Spell Ups Spell Downs Power move Retreat/notrack Double/Triple attack

                   Borg  Merc  Gd Cle  Gd Kni  Barb  Mage  Phyz

Stun/sleep 0 0 0 0 2 1 1

Heal 1 0 2 1 0 0 0

Pets 0 0 0 0 0 1 0

Dodge/deflect attacks .5 0 0 1 0 2 1

Damage reduction 1 0 2 0 .5 0 1

Knock down 0 1 0 1 1 0 .5

Speed 1 0 .5 0 .5 0 0

Spell Ups 1 0 2 1 0 1 2

Spell Downs 0 0 1 0 0 2 2

Power move 1 2 0 2 2 1 1

Retreat/notrack 0 2 0 0 0 0 0

Double/Triple attack 0 2 0 2 2 0 0

TOTAL: 5.5 7 7.5 8 8 8 8.5

groan it doesn't detect spaces…

Hrm, well lemme do it this way, the order of the numbers are gonna be:

Stun/sleep, Heal, Pets, Dodge/deflect attacks, Dam reduc, Knockdown, Speed, Spell Ups, Spell Downs, Power move, Retreat/notrack, Double/Triple att, Total

Cybo: 0__ 1__ 0__ .5_ 1__ 0__ 1__ 1__ 0__ 1__ 0__ 0__ 5.5

Merc: 0__ 0__ 0__ 0__ 0__ 1__ 0__ 0__ 0__ 2__ 2__ 2__ 7__

GCle: 0__ 2__ 0__ 0__ 2__ 0__ .5_ 2__ 1__ 0__ 0__ 0__ 7.5

GKni: 0__ 1__ 0__ 1__ 0__ 1__ 0__ 1__ 0__ 2__ 0__ 2__ 8__

Barb: 2__ 0__ 0__ 0__ .5_ 1__ .5_ 0__ 0__ 2__ 0__ 2__ 8__

Mage: 1__ 0__ 1__ 2__ 0__ 0__ 0__ 1__ 2__ 1__ 0__ 0__ 8__

Phys: 1__ 0__ 0__ 1__ 1__ .5_ 0__ 2__ 2__ 1__ 0__ 0__ 8.5

Thie: 2__ 0__ 0__ 1.5 0__ 1.5 0__ 0__ 0__ 2__ 1__ 1__ 9__

ECle: 0__ 2__ 2__ 0__ 2__ 0__ 0__ 1__ 1__ 1__ 0__ 0__ 9__

Rang: 0__ 0__ 0__ 2__ 2__ 1.5 0__ 1__ 0__ 0__ 1__ 2__ 9.5

Psio: 1__ 1__ 0__ 0__ 2__ .5_ .5_ 1__ 2__ 2__ 0__ 0__ 10_

EKni: 0__ .5_ 2__ 1__ 0__ 1__ 0__ 1__ .5_ 2__ 0__ 2__ 10_

Bard: 0__ 1__ 2__ 1__ 0__ 0__ 0__ 2__ 2__ 2__ 1__ 1__ 12_

Monk: 1__ 0__ 0__ 0__ 2__ 2__ 2__ .5_ 1__ 2__ 1__ 2__ 13.5

hopes this works

Ok, wow, that's really messy and hard to read, but at least I ranked the classes in order of totals from lowest to highest. Again, it's totally my opinion, and there are still many other things to consider when balancing classes, but this is just something to at least look at and debate over.

So, to focus more on bards, I still haven't played one and I completely agree with Elric that we're gonna need some time to see an actual high gen bard.

But, from what I've read from help files and what I've seen people talk about/demonstrate, bards are on the higher end of the class stack. They have a heal, tumbling to dodge attacks, very nice spell ups and spell downs, scream as a strong power move, retreat, double attack, and imo a very very cheap pet summon. These are partially balanced though by having no stun/sleep, no damage reduction spells, and no knock down skill.

Also, a big advantage right now (although I'm sure this will be fixed later) is that bards can use pretty much any piece of equipment in the game (except !neu eq) since there is no !bard eq. I hope the bard's seemingly overpowered class can be balanced a bit by eq, much like how monks are weakened by wearing metal and stone.

Another concerns that I have with bards is their remort song, lament of longing. It allows a bard to create a direct portal to another player, which potentially makes them the best pkiller in the game. I see this as very cheap and would like it if the song required that the bard were trusted in order to establish the portal.

And finally, the last concern I have with bards is that there is no sav_song like there is sav_spell, sav_phyz, and sav_psi. This makes bards even more powerful as they're sure to be able to land all their spell down songs.

-Lysol

The bard would only be the best PK Assister in the mud because of their lament of longing remort song, because, as i understand it, it has an incredibly high wait state, which makes it hard to create the portal, go through, and kill someone before they can recall or get ready for the attack…

however, with a partner, it could be very deadly

Hey Lysol, there is !bard eq, forceball, shield of sable are the only 2 tings i've found, then again they are the only 2 things i've looked at recently

Rangers at 9.5? Lysol you gotta be kidding me.

Until eq starts having sav_song then the Bard class will be extremely unbalancing in PK.

Good to see effort focused on creating a new class instead of balancing the existing ones.

Yeah ranger at 9.5 surprised me too, but again this is at gen 10, and I think that's pretty fair at gen 10, level 49.

I added it like this:

2 points for thorn skin for being a really powerful attack deflector

2 points for damage reduct for bark and stoneskin

1.5 points for a knock down since they have sweepkick, sidekick, and lunge punch

1 point for spell ups (counting second weapon)

1 point for having retreat

2 points for having both double and triple attack

Adding to 9.5

So, yeah, I think that's pretty fair. I'd like to remind you that when Jakezor was gen 10, he was pretty uber shrug.

you can't have barkskin and stoneskin at the same time

also, i said it before, but ranger isn't a good class unless you have 75% and 50+ damroll.

Err right, but stoneskin does give 25% though right? I gave each class that could get 25% a 2, like obliv, nopain, sanct, stoneskin. I gave lattice and damage contol a 1, and 0.5 for berserk on barbs, which I should have put on bards also, raising bard to 12.5.

This is great. Please keep this post going as we learn more about the class. All of your comments are appreciated, and we request more of them.

Thanks!

• wish *

Giving borg a 1 under spellups seems a bit low, because borg can get perm adren, second weapon< +5-6 dam & hit, radionegation, and a few other nice things, you'd think all that would add up to more than a 1

Yeah I had a rough time rating borg spell ups because while they do get some nice spell ups, each program activated lowers your maxmove which hinders the borg a bit. Also, the program defensive posturing lowers AC but it sacrifices dam/hit (same for offensive).

So, I guess highest, I'd put it up to 1.5, instead of 1, but I still can't see their spell ups being worth 2.

Do me a favor and keep in mind that just because a class gets a skill with the same name as another class, in no way does that mean it's the same skill. For instance, Rhythm of Rage sets a bard berserk, but it doesn't give damage reduction the way that barb berserk does. Nor can a bard steal as well as a thief.

Just remember, and I don't mean this to be condecending, just informative, if you haven't seen the code, you don't really KNOW anything. Test before you make assumptions. It's also usually possible that something isn't working exactly the way that I intended. I make mistakes too. :) I made one with instant audience. Now it's where it should be, or at least where I intended it to be.

As far as balance goes, ya know, everything can't be done at once, and you guys never know the whole plan, so…just be patient.

Lastly, Jakezor, if you don't have anything constructive to say, why don't you just go the fuck away? I don't care about you or your opinion.

N

There are many things to keep in mind when posting here:

First, the Bard class is not done. When all of the skills and spells are complete, THAT is when the refining of balance can be done. When we put it in and started it up, there was no way to know whether it would be the best, worst, or most mediocre of the classes. Secondly, Nothing is right, you really don't know the potency of these skills/spells or all the intricate dealings with other bits and pieces of information that they have. For example, berserk and steal not being nearly as good as their prime class counter parts. Its also good to keep in mind that Lament of Longing hasn't even been played with by you guys yet and therefore it's completely guesswork that it would be good for PK assist. The person the portal is going to MAY have a better chance of jumping through that portal and getting you before you get them! Thirdly, to judge Bard right now and compare it to all the other classes is unfair and a lot of assumptions would be unfounded. Before we bash Bard, lets see how it turns out. Give the imms support and unbiased information so we can make the bard class a permanent part of Tempus and make it everything it can be. For, discouraging new things before they are even completed can be SERIOUSLY frustrating to those of us who work really hard to give you guys new things and try to make Tempus more enjoyable, fresh, and fun for everyone.

Even though I've been kinda bitchy about it, I like the bard class… if anything, it's a breath of fresh air. The only thing that sortof concerns me, is that some of thier skills don't make alot of RP sense to me. It seems like a skill such as wall of sound, that helps a bard trap a person or mob, would be much better suited to a fighting class like merc or ranger, and the new alarm spell seems like it would fit better on a psion or mage… So while I think the new songs are awesome ideas, and could potentially add whole new dimentions to the game, they don't (IMHO) fit the bard class very well. Also, I'm not sure if you had considered it or not, but the bard-like classes in other games I've played, that have auraish group effects, usually need to continue playing the song to retain the effect, there's less stacking etc, but the effects are more powerful. That makes more rp sense to me personally, just thought I'd throw it out there.

I also forgot to say that the addition of the bard is an awesome and potentially mudchanging improvement with the respect to grouping becomming more effective/fun. Also, I think given the bard's story it would be cool if the good bard, were an exelent grouper, while the neutral/evil bard were a more effective solo class, just a thought. (and I know it's already like that with good/evil)

Lysol, i think a better scoring system would be to give a point to every "indispensable" skill/spell and maybe half a point to each skill/spell that you could do without, but still use because it's ok. That way you gain a higher accuracy and you don't arbitrarily assign every single skill/spell into a single category.

Nothing: that really hurt my feelings :(

Ivan,

I appreciate the feedback, but I don't think you understand what the Bard is within the scope of Tempus. First of all, let me say that we didn't want to copy a Bard class directly from any source. Not D&D or any other mud you may have played. We wanted a truly uniqe class from the start.

In the scope of Tempus, a bard is able to channel his will into reality by tapping into the power of the universe through his music. In this way, a bard is not much different from a mage. A bard is simply able to manifest his will through music rather than incantations.

However, the differences between bard and mage are significant. A bard is a better hand to hand fighter than a mage, but less offensive magically. A bard is also much more group oriented and better with defensive magic than a mage is.

Whatever the case, make no mistake that a bard is a very magic oriented class on Tempus. :)

N

I understood that from the begining :).

I just don't see how some of the skills fall within the scope of a magical singing traveler shrug

The way I see Bards.. (and this is just from reading Fantasy/researching/Final Fantasy Online/Final Fantasy II US) is that Bards are generally group-oriented people.

They thrive from being in others' company as they are socialites and are well-liked for their amusements. So, this being said.. I think Bards need a command that has them play music as an entertainment-based skill and any npcs/players in the area would be swayed by the Bard's charisma (this being charisma-stat based obviously) and would feel compelled to give a percentage of what they have on-hand to Bards.

I've stil yet to see one in combat much (which is the way it should be for Bards IMO, relying on assistance from players/npcs for the most part) and their secondary (whatever that might be) to bring down their foes.

Bards do seem to be quite amusing, and I've wondered if Tumbling and Uncanny Dodge stack? It'd seem like a nice little expansion for Thieves.

On a sidenote, as combat-esk skills/spells yield xp, why not have non-combat-esk skills/spells yield xp too? Just at like, 1 xp a time. I.e. sneak while moving would give 1 xp per use, stealing would give 1 xp, any spells would (be it healing/enchanting/blessing/repulsing, ect).

While slightly abusable, at 1 xp, they'd have to do it a crapload of times, and it'd be fairly obvious to Imms which players were deliberately abusing it. shrugs It'd take the edge a bit off of always leveling and allow players to interact more too, I'd think. =)

Strael (David)

I liked Ivns idea for differences between good/evil bards, but why not make it like this (Just a suggestion, no one smite me for this. I realize how hard it is has been for the developers to add a new class, and these are just ideas - Wishful thinking, to put it simply ; ) ) How about Evil rangers take on the darker sides of the Bard - Scream, for one, bieng far more effective for them. Also, giving them spells that de-buff the opponet, like sad tunes (I'm figguring on the Evil Bard to be quite maccob) such as Melody of Misery causing an enemy to take mroe damage, kinda stuff like that. On the other hand, good Bards would have happy songs, like Rythym of Reinforcement, which would increase armor or HP. In order to do this, just have it like the cleric's skill set, with Damn bieng for evil clers and Bless bieng for goods. O yeah, and make neutral clerics get some of each songs - for example, the weaker songs of each set. They may not be as powerful, but you have more abilities at your disposal to use. Just the thoughts of a silly Irishman by the surname of Ezekal. O yeah - Bagpipes please? Yay for celtic music! Sorry.

So far I like what little I have seen of the Bard class. On behalf of us spell-chuckers however, I would like to see a mage spell that silences their victim (on a failed sv throw). DS

How about Mute?

Hmm, I have not personally played as a bard, yet i have partied with many. I find the audience members a little too powerfull, the only thing the monk members are missing is combo =p then. The bard can make the audience stun, hiptoss, sweepkick, cast spells? Come on now, i saw a gen 2 bard soloing dracharnos =p. Haveing multiple pets with knockdown abilities pretty much ensures that the mob isnt going to stand up, i have 2 legs, why cant i trip with both? Maybe i am overestimating audience members, and need a little clueing in, please tell me a little more about them since i have never played as a bard. And sorry if i am wrong but yes these are assumptions because no i havent seen the code =p

Your continuing feedback on this developing class is much appreciated. Thanks so much.

• wish *

Correction, it has just recently been so tenderly brought to my attention that Mettle does indeed raise con. Apologies for my mistake

for a defensive class, scream does a LOT.

Okay I'm back from holidays after muh son was born. My 2 cents is: As it currently stands, Bards are far too powerful. The original intention for the class was for it to be group oriented and don't get me wrong they have a lot of nice buffs for grouping with. However! (You just knew that was coming didn't you) for a class that is supposed to be very group oriented, they can solo stuff very easily. The change to remove thief monk audience members was a good one.

Scream does way too much damage for a group oriented class in my opinion. Bards are supposed to be good at everything but not better at anything than the more specialised classes, at least that's the way I see 'em. As it stands, bards have a very powerful damage move, they have the ability to dodge attacks, they can hit reasonably fast, they can steal, they can dispel magic without any chance of it being blocked by anti-magic shell, they have some healing, they have a !track like ability, they have meat shields they can conjure, mirror image avoids hits as well. It's almost like… they have a lot of the best bits of the other classes. In short, Bards are currently the best pkill class in the game.

In my humble opinion, bard songs need to be considered spells and be affected by save spell / anti magic sphere. That might be where the general playing public is getting the opinion that bards are too powerful from; No one has any save vs songs. Maybe scream won't do too much damage if people have a chance to save vs the damage (it's all hypothetical since I know nothing of the code, but the same thing happened with phyz and psi when they came in). There still isn't a good enough method to avoid being lectured, and save vs psi equipment isn't readily available. It's my opinion that a mages greater enchant should have save vs spells, song (if its' going to be seperate from spells) phyz and psi. I mean all high gen players have equipment that's been greater enchanted etc etc.

Mages are the logical choice to get a spell / tweak an existing one for this kind of benefit as well before I get any beefs because I have a mage :P

Anyway this is a marathon post. I like the class, it definitely needs to be tweaked so it doesn't dominate however :p

Ok, having now fought a gen 10 bard and having messed around with the class myself, I have to agree in saying that the bard class is entirely too powerful.

A gen 10 sleeping scream did 1960 damage to me through 75% damage reduction, which is waaaay more than any other class' powermove. In comparison, a gen 10 psi's sleeping psiblast did 900 damage to me. A secondary bard's sleeping scream did 1300 damage to me. I mean, I'm really seeing a problem when a secondary bard's powermove can do more damage than a primary psi's powermove. Now, like Nothing said, I don't know anything without actually knowing the code. But, I think that the power of scream comes from 2 things. First, like Elric was saying, not having save vs songs and second, from the power boost given to scream by fortissimo.

"In short, Bards are currently the best pkill class in the game." I completely agree.

Ok, besides scream, I also have an issue with mirror image melody. When fighting a gen 10 bard, it seems to be entirely too powerful, almost mimicing thorn skin in its ability to avoid first attacks. Now I know that it's a level 46 song, but I really do think that this should be moved to a mid-gen remort song. Also, I think that if a bard is sleeping and you hit the mirror image with some first strike attack, it shouldn't wake the bard up since it is hitting the image after all.

Also, I think either there was a mess up with either the coding or the help files when it comes to Guiharia's glory and Alron's Aria. The help file says Guiharia's glory gives confidence, but this is what Alron's aria does. And, the stuff in Alron's Aria help file is what Guiharia's glory does. The reason I think this is a mess up coding rather than the help files is because alron's aria costs more mana than guiharia's glory, but the things that guiharia's glory does are much more powerful than alron's aria's confidence.

I do have to say though that while I feel bards are over powered at high gen, they are extremely hard to level low gen because there are so many songs that last such a short time. Not having a way to regenerate mana quickly is a huge detriment, although fair. And that's probably a big reason why a lot of the bards are going psi and phyz, for psidrain and econvert.

Couple other things:

In the help file, home sweet home says it recalls you and your party but it only recalls you. Not sure if this is a bug or an error in the help file.

Another thing I'd like is if a bard dies, his wall of sounds should also dissipate.

Another note about wall of sound…

I think that it can be so easily abused to annoy others in the game. I've already seen a bard seal off all exits to holy square with walls. This could easily be extended to putting walls up around the retriever, putting walls up around guildmasters, and putting walls up before the scrying cauldron in htom.

So I propose that the walls of sound should be bashable or attackable to break them open.

OOOO around the cauldron, brilliant lysol, sheer brilliance

"Bards are too cheap. Bards are too cheap. Bards are too cheap." Then maybe you should play it. Every class I play everyone says they're too cheap. Yeah that's right, "Clerics are too cheap" after Arna got to gen 10 and owned in the arena. Then, Mages were too cheap after Red hit gen 10 and owned in and out of the arena. And now after Ridic hit gen 10, "bards are too cheap!," after owning in and out of the arena. See where I'm going? Not to brag or anything, but I think the combination of these 3 characters at their prime can kill any other 3 mortal characters on the entire mud. :P

wow i am REALLY late posting on this…. but anyway…. from my experiences with bards…. i love them, but have noticed that it seems that the effects of their songs are extremely short. also, im not a bard, but without aliases, i imagine its really irritating to have to type in the big eloquent names to perform a song. even the first word could take too long. i cant tell you how many times ive died or gotten disturbingly close to it because i mistyped somehting at a cruciual moment in combat. also, elric, congrats on your kid.

~ I think ill lose my mind if i dont find somehting to pacify~ Paranoid

I know bard is supposed to have a range of skills and spells, however they arent supposed to be powerful offensively or good at taking damage. In D&D Bards have one and only 2 spells that deal damage, (yes they're spells not a skill) which are Shout (5d6 damage) and Greater shout (10d6) which at it's most powerful is the same as a lightning bolt or fireball (Which both damage a max of 10d6). bards can do in D&D, they have great buffups and are good at dodging, but they are not made to be offensive or tough characters at all.

Instead of just ranting I mean this to be some examples of why there should probably be 2 changes in bard

#1 make scream comparable to lightning bolt and get rid of fortissimo.

#2 lower bard hp to where it's supposed to be, the exact same as Thief. They're both supposed to have d6 per level hp.

#3 Give them group healing spells and group charm spells. make their charm powerful.

whoops, 3 changes

But thats the thing, this isn't DnD. Yeah, bards are powerful but that comes at a huge cost. You don't see any bards that remort something besides psi or phy, because they have no innate way to regenerate mana at an accelerated rate.

In truth the bards of tempus are very similar to the bards of everquest 2…a retinue of short term buffs and scream, the shotgun ability. Saying that, you're right scream is strong, but quite literally its like firing off a shotgun, the waitstate on it is pretty disgusting. When it comes to PvP though thats largely irrelevent because it can outright kill if not get them damn close to death.

Putting scream to the damage of lightning bolt is cutting down the damage more than half. Removing fortissimo hurts us more than just scream, you'd also be killing our area of effect attacks (Dirge and Sonic Disruption).

Cant say I agree with nefing their hp further either. Contrary to popular belief, bards only have 1 superb defensive skill, mirror image. Their dodge isn't all that actually, in a fight with a group of mobs, I could count the amount of times dodged on a single hand. Regardless, the style of play for a bard and a thief are completely different. A thief focuses on hit and run, avoiding actualy combat as much as possible.

If what you propose becomes true, you're creating a class with no fast means of front-loading damage (IE backstab) but with as few hitpoints as a thief, and you're going to get hit a ton more in combat than a thief while you're at it.

Cresendo, y should a low gen bard be able to kill a high mage with mshield on 100% with one scream?

Cast, I don't think scream is THAT powerful.

I only did 1200 damage to you, and that was while you were sleeping with my gen 1, level 40ish scream.

Meanwhile, high gen mages approach 2000 mana.

(quickly recapping this recently revived thread that I stayed away from forever)

Hel-low -

Please do be noting this thread has been revived after over a year of dust (wonders about brywing for bringing it back).

Since it's induction, Bard has overgone massive amounts of "nerf"ing. Bard's natural hps are lower than thief. To competely "spell up", a bard will burn a vast majority of maxmana. Heaps of "eq" are !bard. Tumbling does not work while "grounded". Scream is like prime psiblast. I read someone gasping about a gen 2 bard being able to solo drachs - did you notice me soloing them with morts? I cannot support further "nerf"ing of the class.

Tempus was never supposed to be D&D but - much more creative.

If you turn scream to lightning bolt, and hack off fortissimo, you're really going in the wrong direction.

There are sweet class "combo's" that can be had other than hooching bard. Bard is by no means the end all to be all. Continuing down the road of "nerf"ing Bard is only going to lead to what borg has become.

PS. Setting mshield at 100 - has always from what I've seen, proved a bad idea..

PPS. Do ya know.. where you're going to. Do you like the things that life is showing you? Where are you going to, do ya know? Do ya get what you're hoping for.. when you look behind you there's no open doors. What are you hoping for - do ya know?

Gnessic, Lost killed me in one hit…

Very good points, upon reflection, maybe I could change my idea to 1 thing only for the moment, removing fortissimo.

To Cast: What were the circumstances? Were you floored/sleeping? Did you have damage reduction?

Crescendo couldn't kill Spellcaster with one hit (standing). He did do like 2000 damage though.

First off I like to say when Lost capped Cast he wasnt low gen. He was gen 7 and besides lots of factor could have been added in. You were in immoth… maybe you werent fully healed from the last battle? Either Way the second time I lost pkilled cast one scream didnt kill him… Took one scream and 3 hits from my weapon.

Scream is strong but there is still was to protect against it. you can get save breath which you can easily get from enchants and get more dam reduction. thats my 1 and ¹⁄₄ cents

Yep..gotta go with Dyne on this one, scream is strong….if you have no save breath. If you aren't packing any save breath you're just asking to get wrecked by a bard, to consistantly save against scream you don't even need -20 save breath, its that easy to deal with. And please, PLEASE don't say "well why should we have to get sav breath just because bards can kill us without it?" Well, guess what? Mages require sav spell, I don't think anyone is dumb enough to expect to stand a chance against a mage with 0 save spell, same goes for psi, same goes for phys, the point is, just deal with it :P.

Point taken. but i still think that bards has too many good skills/spells, like retreat, recall song, steal, dispel, it's like taking the good stuff from all the other classes and jaming them onto bards. maybe, can we take away some of the skills to make them more realistic?

i'm not saying to take away EVERYTHING, but maybe just replacing one or two skill/spell like changing double attack and replace it with 1.5 attack or something?

Thanks! Cast

Bards' double attack isn't as good as say, a monk or a merc because their thac0 isn't as good. That means they're not going to attack as fast, so in essence, that is a 1.5 attack. Same with thieves. Why they have this skill though, along with what I think is a PRETTY high thac0 (I think it's about 5 at lvl 49) is beyond me…. Aren't bards supposed to be a casting class? They've got awesome spellups and audience members for defense and an insanely strong power move for offense. Doesn't make sense to me.

Bards take the good things from other classes, yes. But they are super toned down compared to them. We have berserk!…but it costs 300 mana to turn on, cant turn it off in combat because we have to cast a seperate spell to turn it off. We have dispel!…have you ever tried dispelling anything with a bard? it is so crappy ⁹⁹⁄₁₀₀ times you wipe the item. The most important thing is you have got to stop comparing bards like Crescendo and Melody to the rest, theres all of about 4 bards like that, before the huge hp nerf.

On another note, bard buffs in general are super short duration, unless you have the remort skill lingering song. Even then some of the spells you are constantly recasting every few ticks. You don't see many secondary bards around, and theres a good reason for it, the mana consumption is nearly doubled and the gain is significantly less to the point that it really isn't worth it. Not to mention even primary bards are basically locked into being one of two remort class, psi or phy. Without one of the two you quite literally spend more mana buffing than you regen back, making it impossible to have continous buffs. Do bards have some good strengths? yes! But they also have some severe limiting issues, go ahead, try and play a bard through a gen as a borg, or a monk, or hell anything else other than a psi or phy…I dare you, because the second you are remortable you'll be jumping for joy to get the hell out of that gen because it is so bad.

Oh, to clarify my post, I meant bards have a pretty LOW thac0…. Whoops. And Crescendo's right about the bard skills and stuff. I agree with most of that stuff. Bards take a lot of skill to play, so it makes sense that a class that takes more skill should be more powerful. If you take a look ata comparatively weaker class, say merc or borg (primary). Those don't take much skill or upkeep at all, it's just walk in and attack what's around, and they're probably not going to be as strong as a bard. I think if the class was really THAT overpowered, we'd see a huge amount of bards playing, kind of like we had with mages and monks (it's not so bad now). Instead, who do we see with bards? Melody, Crescendo, Lost, Kharas, Ridiculous, Birdie. All of these players are very experienced, have powerful, gen 10 multis, and the resources and skill to handle the tricky class. So why shouldn't they have that extra power? It's the same argument that people had with thieves: They're cheap, stun and backstab is too powerful, and they're too hard to level! Maybe there's a reason for all that….

Everything is cheap, all classes should be reduced to fighting class having only punch(&pie), casting classes having magic missile, and neuter classes being the mix inbetween, varietity is the poison of life, Scientology is the only true way, repent now, L. Ron Hubbard is near!! No Srsly - Conduct saw him at knoebles and can competely validate that, yall best recognize! Xenu pwns you!! Only being operating theton lvl XV can save you!!