As far as my knowledge goes, Stoneskin is the only damaga reduction spell that has a negative added onto it. -2dex i believe is the base for it.

So, no other damage reduction gets a - to it, but they all do 25%? I believe thats correct…

So shouldn't stoneskin give something more than 25%? I mean, com'n, you're skin is f'n stone! I'm not sure about the ac apply it gives… but maybe this could be altered?

Maybe more ac apply? Maybe the -dex taken off? Or maybe more damage reduction added?

It just seems that its unbalanced and unfair to rangers to have to suffer the -2 dex while other classes benefit from their damage reduction free of charge.

-Tanin

Stoneskin gives you damage reductions, 20 acapply I believe, and makes it damn near impossible for syringes to be used on you. Plus I believe skills like hamstring have a much harder time landing, seriously think how hard it would be to cut through stone. :P

All spells that give redux aren't 25%. Things like lattice and dermal give much closer to 10%. Nopain and Sanctuary give more, but they are easy for any class to get via potions, pills, or syringes. True, it kind of sucks to have a remort spell that has a downside like that, but that spell also makes ranger the easiest class to get 75% damage reduction with. 2 dex isn't really the end of the world either. Just spend a life point and implant a quantum stimulus.

True, valid points. I'm not sure about the hamstring though. Syringes are an advantage of the spell for sure. But compared to the other dam redux, (Nopain, Barkskin, Lattice, Damage Control, Sanc, Dermal, Oblivity) Stoneskin is the ONLY remort damage reduction spell. Correct me if I'm wrong on this one, but i'm pretty sure it is.

If it's true about landing harder for things like hamstring, maybe it should be extended to others like behead, backstab, wrench, etc.

Any other damage reduction like dermal or lattice give AC (around 10 AC I believe) where stoneskin gives 20. Mages can recieve more AC with their basic "armor" spell. Compared to all of their spellups, they could earn more AC and apply that to damage reduction past -300 ac.

I'm not ruling out the -2 Dex but I want to make a point that its kinda lame in my opinion that every damage reduction is Mort, and has no negative affects. Stoneskin is Gen 4 with only 25% damage reduction with -2 Dex added onto. Originally it was 75%. Thats something that I was willing to give up when I was rolling with 75.

I'm not sure but I've been informed that Critical hit is not dependent on anything to land. I believe Counter Attack is determined on Dex. Along with dodging attacks. Plus Rangers are more directed in it for hitting hard and fast. We have sweepkick as a main attack, and we use our Dex to make sure we land those hits.

With Stoneskin you're taking a 2 dex off their roll. Sure you can get an implant to boost you back up, but I'm not sure how hard Dr. Karam is and how often the implant loads. It comes down to that Rangers already have a tough time when it comes to beating a mob down, and what made/makes stoneskin awesome is that we could stand there and take the beating.

I'm not nessically asking for 75% damage reduction (though that'd be nice) I just want something to balance out the -2 dex on the spell.

If any of this information is invalid, please correct me.

-Tanin Majere

^^^

Note: Who the fuck uses syringes now? And do they even load?

Only heroin needles do I know of that people use. Anything else? I can't recall anything currently.

Anyway, thanks Narc for reminding me!

-Tanin

the spell is fine, Nopain doesn't give any AC as far as i can remember, at least i know i dont get any from it. And as far as Sanc, people always bitch about how easy it is to get (from potions), well, if your not cleric, its not 25%. I believe its 15%, but i wouldn't swear to it.

There's also something to be said that Stoneskin is unique to ranger, NO other class, including secondary rangers can get it. Sanc and nopain and ALL the other dam redux spells can be found other places than prime in their respective classes. Stoneskin isn't even a listed oedit spell.

I'd love to have stoneskin for brywing, I'd just get some +dex eq to compensate, it doesnt have to be an implant.

I believe sanc is 25% for divine classes, e.g. kni and cler 15% for others, except phyz and one other which get 8%. I'm not sure on this though.

Nopain can be gotten at full strength for any class, which I think should be changed somehow, but that's how it is.

Sanc is 25 for divine (cleric and knight), 20 for aligned characters (good/evil), and 15 for neutral. :)

Man I hate to be a stick in the mud but all of you are wrong :p

Sanc doesn't care about align. 25 for divine classes 15 for the rest except for I believe phyz, borg, and vampire. Borg gets 8, phyz gets 8 or 0. Vampire gets 0.

Damn, and I was thinking of remorting Vampire too…

I'd be happy to lose the 20 AC if the -2dex was taken away. Or keep the -2 dex, ditch the 20 AC and increase the amount of reduction.

Also Cleric/Psi can reach 75% without oedits while there isn't any ranger combination that will give you 75% without any either.

The problem isn't that stoneskin gives -2 dex, it's that nopain doesn't do the same. Dermal, bark, and lattice should give -1 aswell.

Actually Ranger psi is just as easy as cler psi for getting 75%.

25 from stoneskin+25 for nopain+10 or so for barkskin or dermal+ 15 for sanc from any item for it = 75%

one thing about nopain with cleric and ranger compared to psi. Psi pays heavily for it's redux in hp, ranger and cleric do not. a ranger should have 1000 hp or so by gen 4, and a cleric should have near 1000 hp gen 10. Psi will be lucky to get 650 gen 10.

I mean if nopain is too good when someone secondaries into it (which i think is true), since you all secondaries dont have to pay the hp price much, maybe reducing the amount of secondary nopain redux would be good. say to 15%? :-D

Barkskin doesn't stack with Stoneskin, otherwise you would be right.

If barkskin was stackable with stoneskin that would be pretty rad, but I doubt it'll happen.

Dermal however does.

Nopain should be a remort skill, as should sanctuary.

A Ranger/Psi can't get sanctuary unless it's on an oedit.

Good Cleric/Psi gets Sanct, Shield of righteousness, Dermal hardening, and No pain. Also an extra 10% when it's the full moon, but that's situational so nobody really counts that.

Let's also not forget Divine Power which gives them close to the same HP as rangers.

There is stock eq that a ranger/psi can wear that gives sanctuary.

shouldn't barckskin cause the player to be weak to fire and stoneskin weak to water? just curious…if there are protection to an element,shouldn't there be a weakness to an element as well?

I think Cast brings up a good point with this one. There are some elemental weaknesses out there (borgs and lightning, trolls and fire) but there's not a whole lot else. Unless I'm mistaken. I'm not really sure about this, but if I cast fireball on an immoth scout, am I doing more damage than if I cast say, lightning bolt (assuming the spell strength is the same otherwise)? Anyways, I think this is a great idea. It could be used to balance out the redux spells, and by making elemental weaknesses more common, it would make some of the lesser used spells more useful.

sorry Jake, but i feel the need to point this out

"A Ranger/Psi can't get sanctuary unless it's on an oedit."

Things have changed, a ranger/psi can wear eq to get sanctuary now. :)

and i think the different spells should cost the same, like lightnigh bolt, fireball, and ice cream cone, if they cost the same mana and gold, and learn at the same lvl. then w/ the elemental weaknesses, they would be used more often.

woo for ice cream cone!

Hahahaha, Ice cream cone. That made me laugh.

Ok, I could maybe see a fire spell doing a lil more to someone who is effected by barkskin. However, this is just a skin covering the normal area of skin. Fire could maybe remove the effect as well as doing extra damage for that first spell casted on the target. Water doing damage to stone? I don't agree to this. A matter of fact castles were built of stone to reject fire and harsh weather. Today homes are still built with stone. It is one of the most expeisive materials you can buy.

As of sanc and nopain being remort spell/trigger. I don't agree with this because your only going to make those who already have those oedited on eq stronger. Some rangers complain about the -2dex neg for stoneskin. I find nothing wrong with this. Stoneskin would make you bulky and slow you up in the dex dept. I'm a ranger and its all about style of play. I can't walk in a kill anything in one attack because I choose to play a more defensive class.

Most of what I'm rallying for is changes to take place over a wizlock. Not having affects like that on eq whatsoever is another part of the whole pie I'd like to see changed.

Not having affects on eq would greatly reduce the variety out there I think. I do see your point though, Narc. I do think haste and adren are a little too easy to come by, and have become a little too standard, taking away from the classes that cast them. Adrenaline and confidence don't seem TOO unreasonable, however, since getting it from eq doesn't give you the hitroll bonus of actually casting it, but as far as I know, haste is the same no matter what. I wouldn't actually know this since I've never once learned it since I always had haste eq. Perhaps benefits like this could be added to spells like haste. If not, I don't think the situation is so horrible as to warrant a wizlock.

I think that Haste should increase ur chance to hit, and decrease ur chance to get hit. cuz u are moving twice as fast, so u should respond twice as fast. (ignore this post if haste already does this, but if it did, then i think it should increase dex by 0.5 point or something)

Gogo Necro-Post!

I haven't been on for a while, but I've been reading the boards with interest, a lot of times dismayed at the misinformation that's being passed out, but that's another story :p.

I can finally post from work (thank the powers) and felt the need to address a point to Narc :P

Elric takes a deep breath. Elric screams, "STOPASKINGFORWIZLOCKSANDREMOVINGAFFECTSFROMEQUIPMENT"

It's been done. It doesn't work. It made the game less fun. Eventually those same effects come back into the game on different items in new zones. As a player who's been through two wizlocks they fucking suck.

The only wizlock I'd support is one where players that have oedits keep them. Drop me back to level 1, I don't care, in fact I'd enjoy it, as long as I get to keep my oedits. Hell anyone that knows who Elric is, knows I've ASKED to be set back to level 1 from a gen ¹⁰⁄₄₉ twice!

I don't give a flying toss about the rest of the equipment (except for quest rewards which you can't replace, but I'd wear that). I do care about oedits. As a player (yes I still consider myself a player) in a different time zone I find it EXTREMELY difficult to accumulate quest points to buy these oedits that according to you are ruining the game. (That sounds very negative, it's not supposed to be a personal attack, I hope you get the point without the negative connotations)

I've played this game longer than anyone, and I can say that I personally don't like not being an asskicker. I don't want more realism which is what it seems like Narc is pushing for. This is a fantasy game.

I want to make my character so powerful he can solo hell like he used to. That's what I find fun. Doing zones solo that you're not supposed to be able to do. I realise there are players with a specific class setup that can probably do that now. (maybe Red / Crescendo / Melody… dunno about others, but I'm pretty sure those 3 can (anyone else notice the similarity?))

While I'm on my high horse. Old age affecting you negatively needs to go. It's unfun and impacts upon the performance of a much loved character. Again, this is a fantasy game, I'm experiencing getting older in real life, I don't need to experience it in a game I play for fun. Make it a reward for reaching the pinnacle of mortal existence that your age is no longer factored into your ticks; you simply get your ticks at whatever the optimum is.

And speaking of the pinnacle of mortal existence… It needs to be raised or the rent system needs to be changed. I'll explain how they relate :p

I have two gen 10 characters. I could easily have a crapload more if I chose. I don't choose too because of the way rent works. I have to pay rent for each character that has equipment, and on my house. So I get my character to gen 10 and get his equipment set up so that I'm happy with his performance. I can't improve this character anymore without quest point assistance. So I get bored and start a new character. I pull the original character out every now and then to have fun blasting through a zone or to level a mate's character or whatever. Eventually the second character hits gen 10 and I get his equipment setup. I'm now paying twice as much rent.

Why am I being effectively punished for beating the game? (I call it punishment because personally I find money running for rent fucken boring). Rent should be setup such that the character that has the highest rent is the only one that gets charged plus the house. To prevent a gen 10 player from creating a level one character and loading it up with equipment to get the low rent bonus, rent should be calculated for all players on an account as if it was the highest level / gen character.

Once that's changed, increase the level cap! Give me the option of genning up my secondary class! Give me a third class, I don't care. I just want to keep playing the game with characters that I love and improving in power so that eventually I might be able to get back to a level of ass-kickery that I feel I deserve :P

Looking forward to some discussion.

I was thinking, what about stoneskin giving 25%, -4dex, +2 strength, mucho resistance to knockdowns and making the character !fly/drop like stone.

Brywing, if you were a ranger would you be happy with your signature remort ability having negatives? Can you name any other class that has a remort ability with negatives? Stoneskin is the only remort ability in the game that I can think of (and I may be wrong) that already has negatives. Why do we need to make it worse?

My signature remort abilities are not worth too much and certainly are not damage reduction.

My point with this post is however, no other class can get stoneskin except prime ranger Everyone can get !pain easily through pills or sanc through Many options. Keeping your remort ability unique to your class is great and I would gladly pay a -2 to dex, str or any other skill to make !pain a remort psi (no potions or eq affects) ability.

I was suggesting a different approach, can we comment on my suggestion?

I can understand your frustration with the prime psionic remort abilities and triggers in general. This is a frustration that I'm sure a lot of classes experience. The issue with psionic is there is not enough reason to make playing a prime psionic attractive. Secondary psions get all the same abilities a prime does minus (there are two remort abilities for psions are there not? Amnesia and?) a couple of remort triggers that don't seem to be earth shatteringly good.

Combine that with the low hit points of a prime psion and well you get the picture.

Regardless, I don't see a need to make Stoneskin have more negatives, that's pretty unfair to rangers. It's already the only remort skill in the game that has penalties attached to it. (That was my comment on your suggestion).

I don't think making !pain a remort trigger is a good idea either. There simply has to be more reasons to pick a prime psionic instead of choosing a different class and playing a secondary. We need to make a prime psionic more attractive to play. True, you could do that by making !pain a remort trigger but that would suck. You'd have a heap of people playing prime psionics then, because like it or not damage reduction is king on Tempus.

People having !pain and sanctuary from potions / pills or other temporary measures could very easily be addressed. Make them drop less or sell less or both. Make the damage reduction on these items only last 1 tick. Personally I couldn't be stuffed having to run a zone to collect potions to give me damage reduction that doesn't last a damn and is easily dispelled.

Instead of making !pain a remort ability, why not make improved !pain a remort ability. Give you an additional 2% per gen dam reduct or something. Or even better something I've suggested and seen suggested by others the ability for a prime psion to overwrite !pain with a trigger. Let the secondary psions have their !pain and other classes use potions and pills to give damage reduction, if you could simply land a trigger on them that nullifies !pain? It'd be great in PvE as a heap of mobs have !pain. Wouldn't that be the sort of trigger that makes it worthwhile playing a psion?

I guess my response can be summed up as, look for ways to improve the class, without looking for ways to pull other classes down. I don't see Stoneskin as a being a problem ability that needs nerfing.

Elric is right on. I agree 100%

i like elric's post about rent

i think we should totally have that implented

and for those who spent a fortune on a house should get more benefits for it. they should be paying rent for the house (or maybe cryo the house!) that way, ppl don't have to cryo all their in active characters and they would use their characters more often.