Alright. I decided to make a new thread because this is a little more than mere complaining. Lets get constructive here!

Alright, I sat down and tried to rework the thief class but honestly, it's kinda hard. Whats in effect now is pretty solid all things considered. However, there are still things that could be done. I've worked out some stuff… let me know what you think. [R] means remort skill, [N] means normal skill. (be civil)

+The Breakdown+ 1-10, Low Level -Essentials- 10-30, Mid Level -Optionals- 30-49, High Level -Aggressive-

+Essentials+ As you might imagine, these are the things EVERY thief does no matter what. As such, they are the ones that are what the following skills are based on. Makes sense. Not much has been added to this area, actually only one thing. But this is the area where things truly need to be fixed.

-Essential Skills- Pick Lock, Steal, Hide, Sneak, Backstab, Glance, [R]Shadow(np)

[R] Shadow (name pending) - As I suggested in the other thread, I think this would be a great addition to the thief class. It would be a remort skill, say gen 1 or 2 - something low. It would bolster the effects of Hide and Sneak/Stalk. Since other classes also use both hide and sneak (ranger and merc), Shadow would make them a bit more thief-exclusive. Shadow would give a tag (to those that can effectivly see the thief via True_See or whathaveyou) "…s/he is surrounded by shadows". As such it would amplify Hide, eventually to the point where only True_See can detect it (by eventually, I mean gen 8+ at excellent). Its effects on Sneak/Stalk would be drastic improvement to the point of [near] non-detection.

Glance - Come on. Be fair. Why is it that everybody and their mother can detect a glance. I can understand why True_See can detect it but I still think this should be a lot more essential skill than it is. Of course, Glance would be ineffective against concealed items since it is, afterall, just a passing glance. Perhaps Glance could be made almost undetectable, but the price of only searching for items above a certain price level. I mean, in theory - as a thief, why would they even bother eye-ing something that wasnt worth any value?

+Optionals+ I have no complaints about the current skills in this range. However, I still would like to suggest.

[N] Deep Breath - Thieves have never had really high Move Points. This is just a suggestion. This would be the sister-skill to retreat. Once in learned, it stays in effect, but it would allow for a greater regeneration of Move Points - something that get eaten up quite badly when youre retreating all the time. Just a suggestion.

+Aggressive+ I have one complaint about an exsisting skill, and a suggestion for a few more.

Stalk - This skill could use some improving. Since it is a thief-only skill, why not merely make it a more adequate version of Sneak. Stalk is a high-er up skill, so it would make sense. You could also have the option not only to stalk around, but to stalk someone. While in use with Shadow, Stalk would be unetectable to those without Hearing (or something) or True_See. Only for entering/exiting rooms however. Stalking does not mean hiding… so if someone were to look at a room after theyve entered it the stalking thief would be visible. But they would be oblivious to their being stalked since a thief enters a room AFTER the object… and the overall goal of stalk is to be silent.

[N] Lacing - This was suggest a long time ago. Why not add items in the thief guild and make use of them. Thieves are known to lace their weapons with poison or something… so why not add vials of poison, cyanide, paralyzing agent, etc. in the thief guild shop and then allow a thief to coat their weapon (for one-time use only) with said poison. The better the poison, the mroe expensive.

[R] Hunt - Since Track has been changed to follow the bloody footsteps of things and the likes, why not bring back the OLD Track (that is to say, the tracking of a singular individual) as a high-gen remort skill for thieves/rangers/mercs. This skill would be able to detect specific people that are in youre zone, or of they have a device on them, anywhere (I'll get to that in a sec). This would be like Gen 8+ and could be used for Pkilling or hunting Mobs.

[R] Cut Throat - I liked this idea. A remort skill at say Gen 4 or 6, could add another weapon to the thief arsenal other than backstan. albiet this skill would be weaker it would have added effects. It would disable vocal attacks, so mages would not be able to cast spells, people would not be able to holler after you, nor would they be able to call for help. As such, bonus damage could incur everytime they try… and small amounts of damage could be leeched off similar to poison (but with bleeding). This skill would be a lot weaker than backstab, but the added effects would make it more than worth the while to learn.

[R] Trap - Could be another Gen 8 skill. The ability to turn a room into a Damage Trap with a kit or something (available for purchase at the thief guild perhaps?). The thief could then use HIDE to hide in the room and when the mob/person enters the room it would set off the trap and cause large amounts of damage. This, Cut Throat and Hunt would really be the pot of gold at the end of the tunnel for thieves that make it all the way to gen 8, 9 and 10.

I've also thought of a few items, other than the ones mentioned in the afore mention skills, that could be benefitial to the Thief class and allow more use of other skills otherwise seen as useless.

Smoke Bombs - Much like the current ones, except without a fuse. They would explode on contact and sent a smoke screen in the room, increasing sneak or stalk, to which the thief could enter without having to worry about an aggro mob or aggro player trying to find them.

Flash Bombs - Used for throwing at a person, they explode on contact and cause blindness.

Tracking Device - Used for PLANTING onto people or in their containers (which would be a nifty add to the plant skill) that would be used by the skill HUNT. Used for hunting mobs/players over diffrent zones. High priced, and it can only be used by like gen 8+ so it really would work well.

This is it for now.

I think these are all pretty great ideas. Comments on a few of them:

Shadow This would be a great addition I think. In return for making the thief nearly invisible, a wait-state could be imposed after every action while it is in effect, after all such careful sneaking requires much care. This would also prevent high gen thieves from just shadowing all around, and make it still a challenge to sneak up on someone to pk/steal from them.

Deep Breath This sounds good, but I think it could be different from say just move_tap. It can be activated to regen move points faster, but it will also lower dexterity by a few (or some other bad thing). I see deep breathing as something you do out of battle anyways.

Lacing This would be a great way to allow thieves to "spelldown" their opponents without making them caster classes. Say you're trying to take down a big bad mob and you're a thief/borg, but he stands up and smacks your puny thief body before you can retreat. Solution? Stab him with some paralyzing slow posion. Or some disorienting vertigo poison. Personally, I really like the thought of being a thief with vials of different kinds of poison in my pouch, ready to screw with whoever gets in my way.

Cut Throat I like this idea a lot too. Thief, as a base class, has no real skills to weaken a player (besides gouge). This would be good, similar to Taint, except something that can be cured with a heal, bandage, wound closure, or anything of that sort. Of course, doing that just leaves you open to being stunned again by the wily thief…

Trap This seems like a good idea in theory, but I can see it being abused. It also will be very difficult to balance… If it's too much damage, it'll kill a psion in one hit. If it's too little damage, it won't even make a barb flinch. Also, how would it work with newbie protection?

Personally I feel that trap sounds more like a ranger skill. Something a hunter would have in the wilderness. Some type of ambush trap however could be in place. Cut throat sounds like the more logical answer for a thief skill. I also agree that stalk could have some improvements. The code involved and how it could be improved still has me guessing…Cut throat however could make the person not be able to say, use tells. Telepathic effects however should allow the person who has been cut throated to be able to use tells.

I was thinking about something that would be really cool. Would it be a good idea for a thiefs to have a slight chance to twist their dagger after a backstab? Say the backstab does not kill the mob, the thief puts a little tweak into his dagger and turns it, this would open a wound and do a small ammount of damage. Or maybe the thief could learn a better throwing skill. Able to throw a blade into a mob, it would impale the mob and make them bleed…?

Trap would be one of those skills for Rangers, Mercs and Thieves. I just thought it was a nifty idea. I'm glad you guys liked the ideas.. I mean, I'm expecting them to have some sort of downfall - they arent going to be perfect (nothing is afterall). Perhaps Trap could be something that is only affectual to people who are currently being HUNTED? ;) (or stalked)

I was trying to think of ways to improve throw without altering the skill itself. That would just be troublesome more than the stuff I've already suggested. Instead why not make more worthwhile things to throw - makes more sense to me. The skill itself is fine, just the stuff to throw isnt.

Any other input?

for trap, how about causing stun for like 3 seconds and dealing a PERCENTAGE damage to hp? so that it doesn't deal too much or too little.

Some thoughts on the listed skills: Shadow - I think sneak and hide already work exceptionally well. Yes, sneak and hide are not unique to thieves only, but they work in accordance with their other skills much better. Though, hide still has its limitations. Maybe making this a high gen skill that allows the thief to perform a certain number of commands before hide wears off as opposed to the 'hit enter, do nothing, and you're out of hiding' thing. Glance - It is already fair. Maybe my mom can detect a glance from me, but my dog can't. Honestly, my mort thief can glance most people without true seeing and not be detected. If glance were made even more undetectable, then that'd be reducing true seeing to detect invisibility . Glance can be an essential depending on how you play, but changing it is not necessary. Deep Breath - Get move_tap. If anything, I think rangers should get this skill. Stalk - Maybe I read this incorrectly, but from what I understand you want to make stalk into something that is already is. Lacing - Sounds cool. That's all =p Hunting - Rangers have this, it's called spirit track. Cut Throat - I can see why you like this skill. It's an interesting idea but I don't think thieves should get another version of confusion. There already so many of them out there. The Other Items - I hope you don't mean only thieves can use this. Trap - I agree with Venom on this.

how about changing the name of deep breath to breathing control. and instead of letting u regenerating move points faster, how about decreasing the move cost for the skills by a chunk? just like when u level up, some of the spells cost less?